This is a letter written in response to a communication we received from Allegra about the women's gathering. We have chosen to post it openly here for the BBR community to read.
August 10, 2008
Hello Allegra and all those indirectly concerned with the women's gathering,
This is a letter attempting to represent the varied perspectives of many people here, as clearly and comprehensively as possible. Six of us, with various gender identities and roles, have held conversations to make a statement possible. We do not intend to represent every person here.
First of all, we would like to acknowledge what we have heard and perceived thus far from previous interactions and letters. We were under the impression that we had consciously brought up our concerns about male-bodied parents (Kit and Josh specifically), and the support they provide to their partners, with Geba and Karuna. We trusted Geba to bring this to other people involved, and we suggested some strategies that might help with the process (which possibly started the “men are intending to stay” rumor). We did not receive any communication until the past few days, although we have simultaneously become aware that others are also concerned and having discussions about this, without necessarily engaging us directly (ie: via tribe.net). We have received direct emails from Allegra, to whom we would like to respond.
We hear that Allegra has offered her and Karuna's support in caring for Finley, the suggestion that there will be other childcare available for the twins, and that there is willingness to maintain the animals and garden too, given our ability to share the methods we are currently using. Most importantly, we also hear a very strong desire to maintain the tradition of a space here at BBR kept solely for women, once every year. We sense that this tradition is extremely important to some people. We also strongly encourage you, or anyone, to tell us more about what this gathering means or represents to you. This would help us understand where you are coming from and more about the gathering itself (its story, rituals, traditions, etc.).
We would very much like to let you know what responses this has elicited from some of us here. First of all, there is no desire to break any person's traditions, or impose male-bodied people onto a space intended only for female-bodied ones.
Earlier, we felt hopeful and grateful after our conversation with Geba and Karuna. We felt heard. We were hopeful that conversations would begin and that we could come to agreements to meet all of our needs. And we were grateful to Geba for taking on the task of communicating with others.
After the emails from Allegra, and the tribe.net postings, there was a lot of confusion, resentment, anxiety, and urgency. Confusion around the terms “rumor” and “grapevine”, when we thought that we had openly attempted direct communication. Resentment that we were not directly communicated with until now. Anxiety about not knowing if we are being talked about, judged or labeled. Really nervous that we haven't been heard. And urgency because we still want to have communication about this before the actual event, which is very, very soon. There also are feelings of gratitude for Allegra's offer of childcare, for the expressed willingness to support animals and systems here, and for the direct communication from Allegra. Thank you. Along with that, there are feelings of distrust and anger, as it seems to some people here that you might not actually know the extent of kid-support needed, or what that support looks like. We really want to be included in formatting that support.
These feelings are signals of some very urgent needs that we don't think are being met for us yet:
-We need to be seen and be heard and we want to have our perspectives acknowledged as individuals and as residents of BBR, without judgments.
-We need inclusion in the agreement-making concerning our lives,children, and home.
-We need support as parents and want acknowledgment of our current strategies for meeting children's and parents' needs.
Some strategies* for meeting everyone's (residents' and gathering attendees') needs that we wish to suggest are:
-During the gathering, complete agreement for male-bodied people to remain absent from the areas of the Ranch that will be used for the gathering.
-Kit and Josh (as parents) camping out at the Gatehouse, or preferably, at the Upper Gulch (where the children/parents currently reside), in order for them to be available to their families for support. (Kit is not planning on being at the ranch during the gathering unless an agreement is made before hand. Also, because the twins require at least two people to bottom line their care (i.e. place their needs first), at all times, 24hours a day, and because Drea and the twins have not established trusting relationships with any of the participants, she feels she cannot remain at the ranch without Josh being available at the Gulch or Gatehouse.).
-To have space for parents and interested gathering attendees to discuss what kid-support is actually needed.
-For some people to come to the Ranch early (day before?) to have a “run-through” with our current animal-related chores, as most of the animals' caretakers may be unavailable.
*As “strategies”, we are open to other suggestions which you or others may have. These are not demands.
Our apologies for the formalness of this letter. We are finding it very tricky to incorporate several people's perspectives into a single group statement. Hopefully this letter will help resolve some of your, and our, concerns. We welcome you to respond as soon as you are able, as the gathering is coming so very quickly.
Drea, Amber, Josh, Kit, Joe and Mike
P.S. We would also like to suggest, independent of this note:
-Future conversations (in person) about establishing healthy communication amongst all of the people associated with BBR.
-Conversations about goals and expectations for BBR.
-Conversations about parenting, families and kids.
-Conversations about gender issues (gender identities, sex, privilege, roles, breaking binaries, etc.).
-Conversations about strategies for future women's gatherings. Specifically, some of us have participated in women's gatherings elsewhere that have given men the responsibility of childcare for all the women attending. In this way these men were able to stay close and connected to their children, as well as supporting the need for women to come together independent of men or children.
August 10, 2008
Hello Allegra and all those indirectly concerned with the women's gathering,
This is a letter attempting to represent the varied perspectives of many people here, as clearly and comprehensively as possible. Six of us, with various gender identities and roles, have held conversations to make a statement possible. We do not intend to represent every person here.
First of all, we would like to acknowledge what we have heard and perceived thus far from previous interactions and letters. We were under the impression that we had consciously brought up our concerns about male-bodied parents (Kit and Josh specifically), and the support they provide to their partners, with Geba and Karuna. We trusted Geba to bring this to other people involved, and we suggested some strategies that might help with the process (which possibly started the “men are intending to stay” rumor). We did not receive any communication until the past few days, although we have simultaneously become aware that others are also concerned and having discussions about this, without necessarily engaging us directly (ie: via tribe.net). We have received direct emails from Allegra, to whom we would like to respond.
We hear that Allegra has offered her and Karuna's support in caring for Finley, the suggestion that there will be other childcare available for the twins, and that there is willingness to maintain the animals and garden too, given our ability to share the methods we are currently using. Most importantly, we also hear a very strong desire to maintain the tradition of a space here at BBR kept solely for women, once every year. We sense that this tradition is extremely important to some people. We also strongly encourage you, or anyone, to tell us more about what this gathering means or represents to you. This would help us understand where you are coming from and more about the gathering itself (its story, rituals, traditions, etc.).
We would very much like to let you know what responses this has elicited from some of us here. First of all, there is no desire to break any person's traditions, or impose male-bodied people onto a space intended only for female-bodied ones.
Earlier, we felt hopeful and grateful after our conversation with Geba and Karuna. We felt heard. We were hopeful that conversations would begin and that we could come to agreements to meet all of our needs. And we were grateful to Geba for taking on the task of communicating with others.
After the emails from Allegra, and the tribe.net postings, there was a lot of confusion, resentment, anxiety, and urgency. Confusion around the terms “rumor” and “grapevine”, when we thought that we had openly attempted direct communication. Resentment that we were not directly communicated with until now. Anxiety about not knowing if we are being talked about, judged or labeled. Really nervous that we haven't been heard. And urgency because we still want to have communication about this before the actual event, which is very, very soon. There also are feelings of gratitude for Allegra's offer of childcare, for the expressed willingness to support animals and systems here, and for the direct communication from Allegra. Thank you. Along with that, there are feelings of distrust and anger, as it seems to some people here that you might not actually know the extent of kid-support needed, or what that support looks like. We really want to be included in formatting that support.
These feelings are signals of some very urgent needs that we don't think are being met for us yet:
-We need to be seen and be heard and we want to have our perspectives acknowledged as individuals and as residents of BBR, without judgments.
-We need inclusion in the agreement-making concerning our lives,children, and home.
-We need support as parents and want acknowledgment of our current strategies for meeting children's and parents' needs.
Some strategies* for meeting everyone's (residents' and gathering attendees') needs that we wish to suggest are:
-During the gathering, complete agreement for male-bodied people to remain absent from the areas of the Ranch that will be used for the gathering.
-Kit and Josh (as parents) camping out at the Gatehouse, or preferably, at the Upper Gulch (where the children/parents currently reside), in order for them to be available to their families for support. (Kit is not planning on being at the ranch during the gathering unless an agreement is made before hand. Also, because the twins require at least two people to bottom line their care (i.e. place their needs first), at all times, 24hours a day, and because Drea and the twins have not established trusting relationships with any of the participants, she feels she cannot remain at the ranch without Josh being available at the Gulch or Gatehouse.).
-To have space for parents and interested gathering attendees to discuss what kid-support is actually needed.
-For some people to come to the Ranch early (day before?) to have a “run-through” with our current animal-related chores, as most of the animals' caretakers may be unavailable.
*As “strategies”, we are open to other suggestions which you or others may have. These are not demands.
Our apologies for the formalness of this letter. We are finding it very tricky to incorporate several people's perspectives into a single group statement. Hopefully this letter will help resolve some of your, and our, concerns. We welcome you to respond as soon as you are able, as the gathering is coming so very quickly.
Drea, Amber, Josh, Kit, Joe and Mike
P.S. We would also like to suggest, independent of this note:
-Future conversations (in person) about establishing healthy communication amongst all of the people associated with BBR.
-Conversations about goals and expectations for BBR.
-Conversations about parenting, families and kids.
-Conversations about gender issues (gender identities, sex, privilege, roles, breaking binaries, etc.).
-Conversations about strategies for future women's gatherings. Specifically, some of us have participated in women's gatherings elsewhere that have given men the responsibility of childcare for all the women attending. In this way these men were able to stay close and connected to their children, as well as supporting the need for women to come together independent of men or children.
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Unsu...
Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Mon, August 11, 2008 - 8:15 AMOMG. Why are yall trying to reinvent the wheel? BBR has been there for 40 years, womyns gatherings for x years, most of you at the longest 2 years. Its not that complicated.
And as far as the concerns about the Womyns gathering.. Like any of the folks coming up this weekend havnet taken care of gardens and goats and babies, yeah right.
Your totally alienating yourselves from the greater BBR community. In the end, it wont work.
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Mon, August 11, 2008 - 9:27 AMHowdy Bears, good to hear from all of you. Obviously there has been some mis(and non)communication between the residents and greater community. I understand that you all are concerned about proper care of the children, garden, and animals. Once again I want to say that you needn't be worried. This group Women is one of the most capable you will find, and I'm sure they will be more than willing to give all the care that is needed. I would imagine folks will be coming up early anyways, so that should be a good time to work out some details.
I as well feel that greater communication between all parties involved with the Bear is needed. Tribe.net, email, and person to person communication will all work. Some of us at least will be making a habit of coming to the Bear on the first Sunday of every month. My personal email is benbeaver@yahoo.com. Feel free to use it.
Que lo Valle Bien! -
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Tue, August 12, 2008 - 9:10 AMGood mornin everybody,
Just wanted to say im stoked the gatherins comin up, and I appreciate the women that are comin to get together to do there thing and caretake the ranch for a bit so those who happen to be on the land at the moment can take a few "days off" of the trials and tribulations that are the hard hard working life of living at the beautiful bear. Its a beautiful day up here today by the by, little smokey but its still early. Thanks also to everyone that did get a chance to make it up here on the last 1st sunday and I hope more and more friends and fam can find the time, anytime, to stop home for a bit . Well, Im gonna go make sure my rooms clean before the women start showin up this week, dont want to be gettin in trouble. Ill see everyone here or there sooner or later take care all
Travis
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Tue, August 12, 2008 - 11:24 AMmaybe its time for people to move on and find their "OWN" ranch?
scared of the work?why stay somewhere you really dont want to be? they like our systems,our mountains, our cabins ie.. our ranch but not the BBR social structure/family and openness bbr pertrays. Look at the trust. you must live communally with all and maintain bbr as a commune. Not marsha rosenberglly. or shivalilally.
BBR is not an intentional community, although some wish it was
why cause such calamity with the family?
they should set out on there own pool together if there so tight and buy, rent, get, their own ranch.
many in the family feel the current caretakers have overstayed their welcome or have "played out" or just don't "get it"
of all the groups of folks that have resided at bbr in the past 12 years this group has got to be the most disrespectful, or just stubborn.
I dont think their reinventing the wheel i think there de-flating it. Not to worry there are plenty of people who will help them fix it and move on down the road. -
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Tue, August 12, 2008 - 3:40 PMJust wanted to let everyone on tribe know that there has been other communication about this issue besides what has taken place on tribe. We have resolved things and agreed that Josh can stay at the upper gulch to help Drea with nighttime and the twins. I feel that I am partially responsible for a bunch of rumors and miscommunication about this issue. Hopefully we can move forward and have some constructive discussions with the people currently living at the ranch. This seems like a big lack of communication to me. Lets leave it at that. I think that there are underlying issues of how the greater Black Bear family and the current Bears relate that need to be addressed. The internet is a very one sided way to communicate, though a useful tool.
Thanks,
Allegra
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This post was deleted by nieves
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 11:31 AMwow i really don't have much time been busy.
dinner sounds good!
Please elaborate some more, "our" family would like to help "your family" understand "our" current situation.
"our" refers to black bears and "family "refers to those whose names are written on the trust. Either as Beneficiaries or trustees. When i say our family im refering to the larger bubble,or family. The job of the trustee/beneficiarie is to maintain the Written Trust and its interperatetations. Im actually holding a copy of the trust.
When i say Bears im refering to the smaller bubble i.e. current bears,bears to be
My vision for bbr is simple................ positive growth.
Nothing personal.
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Tue, August 19, 2008 - 9:24 AMIt's like NVC turns out to be PAM, strange.
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 2:29 PMI have a hard time believing Teala wrote that. Stella maybe, but Teala has been hanging out with the dog and I. -
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 3:59 PMLOL wow wow. I love the Bear, and all in there. This all sounds like typical BBR communication class. Glad its still workin. Everything is beautiful now and in the end. Thanks all for being yourselves. One love.
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 4:03 PMIf Teala wrote it there would be no spaces... no thumbs man. I think its a forgery. -
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 10:54 PMIn an attempt to prevent further polarization I will point out that Kim is not a current resident and does not speak for them......and Monkey represents only his own opinions. -
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Wed, August 20, 2008 - 11:23 PMFor any one interested in reading a more in depth conversation that was happening I'm posting a few words from other folks here........ They are not in order, some letters were from before the response letter and some were after. I hope this helps illuminate the discussion if even only slightly.
Allegra Brucker wrote:
> We just got this email from BBR, was wondering what people think and
> where to go from here. I think that there is a big disconnect, I am
> wondering what to do about it. It would be nice to be more connected
> to this group of people who live at BBR. This is a bigger issue than
> the women's gathering. Jan suggested weekly email updates from the
> Bear might help narrow the gap. What do you all think. I didn't mean
> to cause trouble with them but it seems they have gotten quite
> offended by this interaction. I do understand the need for Josh to be
> there but I do not understand the need for Kit. The women's gathering
> is a kid centered event. It has never been an issue of child care for
> men wanting to stay before. Let me know if I am way off base here.
> Thanks, Allegra
Leggs et al,
There is a disconnect currently around BBR and both the residents and
the larger Family are involved in it's doing. I do think that the
recent e-mails show a desire to have more interaction and conversation
with the responder residents. We should be careful to not chase away
folks, who may have a little different take, but are promoting communal
living, don't dmage the environment. It is the relationship between the
folks living there and the rest of us that we need to best culture. I
should point out that it's been some time since we've had a core of
folks living there and we may be developing response habits that we
should be aware of. I sometimes will instantly jump to a conclusion,
take a breath, and then get some perspective on the situation.
I am also interested who are the 6 folks who have the below oppinion and
am also interested in finding out if there are any dissenters or other
opinions or if a group conversation occured amongst all of the residents
at BBR now.can investigate that further in person or something. Also I
think that it is the Men/adult males and not the boy children that are
being asked to not be there from Friday afternoon to Monday eve. . I
hope that we all can work out the best path to go from here. Having
some men stay at the Gulch for their kids may be a good solution and
also shows that we are willing to work with folks to develop mutual
solutions. Really the Ranch looks pretty good, there is core of sorts
forming it seems which is more together than most we've seen over the
past 10-15 years. How to build an on-going relationship and/or more
trust around each other and our families is something we'll need to work
on with who ever is at the Ranch for longer periods of time. Anyways, I
appreciate your flexibility and desire to get us ball best on track
Leggs. Thanks for helping take a leadership role. I am also very
interested in what others are thinking as well. I will try and weigh in
on tribe as was requested in this last e-mail for more direct
interactions. .
I would also encourage monthly circles with the extended Family and
current Family residents. Also visits and discussions by the larger BBR
family and the residents about BBR as well as various Family folks going
there and visiting when possible to better integrate wil help. We could
also be more in touch with the current residents about upcoming
activities and their plannings. If we can get the 1st Sunday visits more
regular, we should be communicating with the residents about what we can
do together on those days. I will try to help on this end as well.
Anyways, those are some thoughts on a peaceful approach and hopefully
ways to try and make what we want at BBR come together with the
residents. It's ackward at times, but so is life sometimes/ Thanks
again for including me in this interaction. I hope that my thoughts are
helpful. I look forward to and have great confidence that WE can come up
with some good roads to all walk down together. Great job, Leggs, for
helping us get and keep the ball rolling on this.
Talk with you sooner/ Much love from here
Petey.
Hello all,
I think if Drea doesn't feel secure that she'll get the support she needs from us that it's fine if she leaves. She doesn't know us yet, if she sticks around she may feel more comfortable next year.
I think the response from the 6 residents was a well thought out and articulate response. I think we need to be really careful about being too reactionary with incomplete information and so do the residents.
I hope that a satisfying conclusion is imminent, it seems like it might be.
I agree with most everything said in the previous responses from Leggs and Petey. More meetings! or just plain old interactions.
Oh I can't wait to get my big ole pregnant self on a blanket by the pond.
sorry if this is sort of a scattered response, I don't have much time but wanted to jump in anyway.
with Love,
Nieves
Sorry I've been out of the loop. I've been away since August 1st, as many of you know.
I didn't do a good job communicating Amber and Drea's concerns to the great BBR women's community. I wanted to talk to Kit, Amber, Josh and Drea about the gathering when I came up that Sat. and did fire prep work. I got there late and didn't think there was time. I should have made it more of a priority, cause there wasn't another opportunity.
I did mention it to a few women and had concerns of my own after the talk I had w/Hanna and Amber. I'd love to have a discussion and share the Herstory of our women's gatherings w/ everyone at the ranch. That will have to wait until after this gathering. With the fires happening and the postponement of the women's gathering, my feelings about Josh and Kit being up in the gulch during the gathering changed. First there has been more time for the Josh, Drea and the twins and the new animals to acclimate to the ranch. Second everyone who I've talked to has said they are more than willing to help and support the mothers w/ children, this has always been a main focus. Also like Allegra said there will be capable people to help share the chores and animal/garden care. I am supportive of Josh staying in the gulch and giving Drea the help she needs. I want this to be a positive nourishing event for the ranch women.
There are so many things going on, on so many level, we are all very busy w/ our life work. I for one will always be concern and hopefully involved w/ Black Bear. Communication is so important. Let's work on making the connection stronger and meaningfully and keep current with the residence and the greater BBR community. I want to thank everyone for having this discussion and keeping the ball rolling. Good night, Geba
hey everyone,
judy here.
my first thought is- lacking communication, it's hard to know for sure what they're thoughts are. it seems to me that many men over the years have balked at being told they have to vacate for the women's gathering. maybe it's protest on josh and kit's part, or even orneryness and rebelliousness, or maybe they just want to stay home. maybe they'll keep a distance and be at the upper gulch or the gate. Wind and Ben, ( having visited recently) do either of you have a sense of what's up with kit and josh? donna and david, do either of you feel like walking over there and asking them?-----Judy.
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Hi All,
Here is the email I just received from Kit sounds like the situation is resolved thankfully without too much confusion or drama. Thanks for the support.
Love Love,
Allegra
Hi Allegra,
It sounds like you (and other women) are really wanting/needing continuity and consistency with the womens gathering being a women only space. I'm hearing that you and other women have expressed an interest in taking on childcare responsibilities and also animal care responsibilities during that time.
I don't have any interest in being here for the womens gathering. I will not be at the ranch for the womens gathering. My interest is making sure Amber has support during this time, and that there would be other help in bottom lining the animals. Since Finley is older and there is more ease in other people hanging out with her I think this will be possible.
What you may have heard "through the grapevine" was one strategy we were thinking about. Which was Josh and I could stay up at the upper gulch and be support for our partners.. If and when they wanted it (with an interest in providing support throughout the night since those little ones don't sleep through the night(especially the twins)).Wanting to take responsibility in the relationship that we have as co-parents. After hearing your needs with the womens gathering I am not thinking about this strategy as an option for myself.
I am really grateful for the offer to help with childcare and with animal care. It is greatly appreciated. I think that in Finley's case she will probably have an array of willing women to spend time with. Also that the animals will be well cared for (in very capable hands).
I am hoping that this is clear. I'm a little self conscious communicating through email and was wondering if you could let me know what you have heard from this email, so i can make sure we are understanding one another.
In hope,
Kit
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Re: Open letter from BBR residents about gathering.
Thu, August 21, 2008 - 12:08 PMKim's post was removed by her request.
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